A
project to multiply capital with a different counter - the
MCX
Crude Oil 5 points a Day
Ok, am
continuing from where Moh and RM completed this series. They have shown us the
path how a lakh can be converted to a crore by gaining 10 points of nifty
futures or 5 points of nifty options per day. Thanks to those articles and I
would like to continue the same study with
my favorite contract, The Black Gold a.k.a Crude Oil.
my favorite contract, The Black Gold a.k.a Crude Oil.
My thoughts ... what if one looks for substitutions and variations or diversification to 10 points of Nifty Future or 5 points of Nifty Options! Or, what if finding the 10 point from Nifty Future / 5 point from Nifty Options may sound high!!
So, am coming up with 5 points
scalping idea with my favorite contract Crude Oil.
Scalping 5 points a day from MCX Crude Oil
Before
going into detail, let us have a look at brief comparison between Nifty and
Crude oil. This comparison may help to have a confidence that scalping can be done
at ease with crude oil.
Comparative Table of Contracts of NSE Nifty and MCX Crude Oil
|
Contract
|
Nifty
|
Crude oil
|
|
Current Market
Price
|
5597
|
5187
|
|
Margin per lot
(approx)
see note below |
Rs.25,000.00
|
Rs.25,000.00
|
|
50
|
100
|
|
|
Average range in
the day
|
75
|
100
|
|
Trading hours
|
9 a.m - 3.30 p.m
|
10 a.m - 11.30/12.00 p.m
|
|
Average leg
movement
|
15-20 points
|
20-30 points
|
| Note on Margin: The Post on Nifty 10 points was done when Nifty was at 5000 and so Margin 25000. For comparable tables this post adopts Rs.25000 margin so that both Nifty table in the Nifty 10 pt post and returns table here can be studied comparatively. Otherwise, the margin required is similar (on percentage terms on lot value) to Nifty margins. | ||
Now, we
will have look at daily price range comparison between nifty and crude oil in the
year of 2011. This will help to understand the consistent scalping
possibilities with crude oil.
Comparative Table of Number of Trading Days and Range of Day of Nifty and Crude Oil
|
Price Range
|
Number of trading days having this trading range
|
|
|
Nifty
|
Crude oil
|
|
|
< 25
|
1
|
2
|
|
26 < 75
|
96
|
55
|
|
111
|
116
|
|
|
126 < 175
|
75
|
58
|
|
176 < 225
|
8
|
19
|
|
225 < 350
|
|
8
|
Above two
tables should give you an idea to understand the possibilities with crude oil.
Total
returns from crude in long run would be much better compared to Nifty. Please
look at the table below which is self-explanatory. It shows what would happen
by end of the year if one can get adjusted 5 points profit per day from crude
oil scalping.
How does 5 point scalping in Crude Oil add up
Worksheet Extract of Crude Oil 5 Points a Day Concept
|
Contract
|
MCX Crude Oil
|
|||
|
Time frame
|
Intraday
|
|||
|
Trading period
|
1 year - approx 250 trading days
|
|||
|
Target
|
5 Points per day
|
|||
|
Seed Capital
|
||||
|
Trade Margin
|
Rs.25000.00 per lot
|
|||
|
Starts with
|
4 lots (400 units)
|
|||
|
Summary of the projected trade score ( Only Highlights )
|
||||
|
Day
|
Margin requirement
|
Quantity
|
points/day
|
profit in the day
|
|
1
|
100000
|
400
|
5
|
2000
|
|
20
|
141000
|
500
|
5
|
2500
|
|
40
|
203000
|
800
|
5
|
4000
|
|
60
|
295500
|
1100
|
5
|
5500
|
|
80
|
434000
|
1700
|
5
|
8500
|
|
639500
|
2500
|
5
|
12500
|
|
|
120
|
944500
|
3700
|
5
|
18500
|
|
140
|
1403500
|
5600
|
5
|
28000
|
|
160
|
2079500
|
8300
|
5
|
41500
|
|
180
|
3084500
|
12300
|
5
|
61500
|
|
200
|
4577500
|
18300
|
5
|
91500
|
|
220
|
6797500
|
27100
|
5
|
135500
|
|
240
|
10094500
|
40300
|
5
|
201500
|
|
250
|
12302500
|
49200
|
5
|
246000
|
|
Cash in trading account after 1 year
|
1.25 crores
|
|||
|
No. of lots in trading by end of 1 year
|
492
|
|||
Ok, let us
consider another option.
We
basically start with 1 lakh capital and let us with draw our invested capital
of 1 lakh in the mid of the project when the accrued capital reaches 2 lakh
mark. We continue to trade the remaining capital of 1 lakh. We can with draw
again another 1 lakh when the accrued capital reaches 2 lakh second time. This
with drawl would be the 100% returns from our investment. Again, the remaining
1 lakh is left for the project for rest of the whole year and no with drawls
till end of the year. I have made the table for this scenario and check it below.
What if we try to take out the Initial Capital and a 100% Return on it, and try to run the concept Free of Capital from us
Worksheet after extracting the Initial Trade Capital and 100% Returns on it in 5 points Crude Oil a day
|
Summary of the projected trade score with two interim withdrawls
during the year (Only Highlights)
|
||||||
|
Day
|
Margin requirement
|
Quantity
|
points/day
|
profit in the day
|
With drawal
|
Back to trade with capital of
|
|
1
|
100000
|
400
|
5
|
2000
|
|
|
|
20
|
141000
|
500
|
5
|
2500
|
|
|
|
40
|
203000
|
800
|
5
|
4000
|
100000
|
107000
|
|
From 41
|
Continuing with 107000
now the capital is taken out. |
|||||
|
76
|
201500
|
700
|
5
|
3500
|
100000
|
101500
|
|
From 77
|
Continuing with 101500
now the capital+ 100% return taken out. |
|||||
|
153500
|
600
|
5
|
3000
|
|
|
|
|
120
|
222000
|
800
|
5
|
4000
|
|
|
|
140
|
324000
|
1200
|
5
|
6000
|
|
|
|
160
|
474500
|
1800
|
5
|
9000
|
|
|
|
180
|
698500
|
2700
|
5
|
13500
|
|
|
|
200
|
1032500
|
4100
|
5
|
20500
|
|
|
|
220
|
1528500
|
6100
|
5
|
30500
|
|
|
|
240
|
2265000
|
9000
|
5
|
45000
|
|
|
|
250
|
2760000
|
11000
|
5
|
55000
|
|
|
|
With drawn amount
|
2 Lakhs
|
|||||
|
Cash in trading a/c after 1 year
|
28 Lakhs and 15 thousands.
|
|||||
|
Lots in trading by end of 1 year
|
110
|
|||||
One can notice from the above table that initial capital of 1 lakh can be withdrawn on
the 40th day and another 1 lakh i.e, 100% returns can be taken out
on the 76th day.
How this helps?
It helps
in many ways. I can see the following advantages in this option.
- When we initially start the project, we
are going with comfortable and manageable quantity. This would allow us to
move freely without any stress as we trade only 4 lots targeting only 5
points a day. This helps to get away from fewer errors due to emotional
part. Making 5points with 4 lots is not going to be a strain with all the
experience.
- On the 40th day, we withdraw
our invested capital of 1 lakh when we are trading with just 8 lots. If
one can plan very well and carry on in a well composed manner up to 40th
day, then there would be no loss for him after 40th day, as he
is going to trade henceforth with earned
profit and not with his
invested capital. This would psychologically relieve him from the
greater stress.
- On the 76th day, if another 1
lakh is withdrawn, then he has achieved 100% returns on his initial
investment (though it has been withdrawn on 40th day) and
whatever the loss is going to happen after 76th day is not
going to upset him in anyway. (Since he has taken out his capital and 100%
return on 40th and 76th days).
- Bottom line is, your risk if any is only
till the 76th trading day
(or, rather the 40th day itself, since a 100% return itself is a 10times return on FD interest). - When we enter the phase where we are
going to deal with higher volumes, it’s absolutely on the free capital. So,
you must be rather in thrilled than the frightened state of mind.
Before I
close, I can list down following points for consideration
- Longer trading hours in commodities
offer many intraday opportunities for scalping.
·
Potential spike movements suitable for
scalping happen many times in the day. There are three confirmed important
spike times in the day. These can be used for range break-out kind of trades.
·
One is at open when Indian crude oil prices
get adjusted with overnight price.
·
Next spike, when Europe markets open for the
day.
·
And, final kick off at evening when US starts
trading.
·
Apart from this, there are plenty of global
events and data releases all through the day set momentum for price movements.
- Playing simultaneously with nifty and
crude might help i.e, one can plan 5 points in nifty instead of 10 points
and 3 points in crude instead 5 points :)
- As Alphabet pointed out, when the
volumes are becoming huge to a level of practically unmanageable dimensions, we can
diversify trades into various contracts like bank nifty, large caps and several
commodities. This would automatically reduce the volume as it gets split into different counters.
Smaller stones making different chambers to build the huge palace!
This post is a value-adding diversifying part of the series on Mathematical Cumulation of Trading Capital with regular small daytrade scalp. -OJN
The other 2 posts are :
Nifty Future 10 points a day 1 year Cumulative Scalp Trading potential Nifty Options 5 points a day Cumulative Trading
The other 2 posts are :
Nifty Future 10 points a day 1 year Cumulative Scalp Trading potential Nifty Options 5 points a day Cumulative Trading
moh says
I wish to bring out here the essence of the concepts in these 3 posts. We have to always start somewhere with concept at the planning room on a draft board, and deploy for benefits. All opinions, inputs from friends are valuable inputs that makes the process improve and evolve. Very good inputs from Alphabet1. Thanks a lot.
The valuable efforts of assortz has helped in many aspects. Thanks a lot. Some clarification may be due. I have given some of my thoughts below:
Lets assume I start on 4 lots.
I would keep tight stoploss and minimal cost, so that a couple of re-entries would keep me in with negligible overhead.
I would keep a target order for the 10+2 point in Nifty (5+1 point here).
And, say I am unable to make the 10+2 point in Nifty (or 5+1 point in Crude) on all the days.
And if I get the 10+2 points on each day on 40 days in the next 6 months, it still makes the additional 1 lac, though it has been made in 6 months instead of 2 months, and finally trading 8 lots.
At that point I have decided to take out my seed capital of 1 lac and continue with the earned 1 lac, again starting to trade 4 lots.
(the 1 lac was estimated when Nifty was at 5000, now the margin would be 1.12 lac since Nifty is 5600 now. But I am going to keep mentioning the 1 lac for continuity purpose ...)
When, per above table if I again continue, now that my mind is free that my capital has been drawn out, and I am trading with the earned capital, and with a confortable 4 lots again.
When I make the 10+2 points in Nifty (or 5+1 points in Crude) for another 60 days (let us assume, in another 6 months, instead of 3 months), I would end the year of 240 (approx) trading days with 100 target met days.
It would still make my capital appreciate and pay me 3 lacs, which when added to the earlier withdrawal of 1 lac, will be 3+1 = 4 lacs.
Here I am looking at it with a laidout angle of "What If 10+2 point trade is made only on 100days out of 240 market days in the year".
I wish to bring out here the essence of the concepts in these 3 posts. We have to always start somewhere with concept at the planning room on a draft board, and deploy for benefits. All opinions, inputs from friends are valuable inputs that makes the process improve and evolve. Very good inputs from Alphabet1. Thanks a lot.
The valuable efforts of assortz has helped in many aspects. Thanks a lot. Some clarification may be due. I have given some of my thoughts below:
- It is suggested to tune up the scalping on paper-trade, simulated trade and virtual trade, backtest before plunging into real trade, as it is the best way to self-assess concepts.
- The Profit aimed at is confined to about 5 or 10 points after expenses. At this the expected returns concludes.
- The aim is at one single profit scalp a day. And, if a particular day looks unsuitable, the trading can be avoided. The concept takes in a delay, at the most, by this.
- This implies one can shut down trading after the one profit scalp. And this avoids over-trading.
- Also, this implies no compulsive trading each day.
- And, about the daytrade advantage here is
- Trading does not go to positions,
- does not get carried home,
- is not taken overnight,
- its always squared off maximum by 3:25.
- avoids
- the gaps risk,
- positional drawdowns,
- MTM loss,
- margin hit
- The whole table is flexible. One can go with any number of points, any number of lots, any counter, any number of days, it can be stopped somewhere on the way after a few months too. Each will lead to some point of cumulation.
- When systems try for larger profits, they have to cross this basic 10 points anyway, where this one can stop.
- And, when the basic goal of 10points is reached, the rest is a corollary, sooner or later.
- one 10 point once a day in one of the days is one forward step a time.
- And, it is a concept article set ... enumerating cumulative potential which can be fine-tuned per individual trader mind-set and situation.
Lets assume I start on 4 lots.
I would keep tight stoploss and minimal cost, so that a couple of re-entries would keep me in with negligible overhead.
I would keep a target order for the 10+2 point in Nifty (5+1 point here).
And, say I am unable to make the 10+2 point in Nifty (or 5+1 point in Crude) on all the days.
And if I get the 10+2 points on each day on 40 days in the next 6 months, it still makes the additional 1 lac, though it has been made in 6 months instead of 2 months, and finally trading 8 lots.
At that point I have decided to take out my seed capital of 1 lac and continue with the earned 1 lac, again starting to trade 4 lots.
(the 1 lac was estimated when Nifty was at 5000, now the margin would be 1.12 lac since Nifty is 5600 now. But I am going to keep mentioning the 1 lac for continuity purpose ...)
When, per above table if I again continue, now that my mind is free that my capital has been drawn out, and I am trading with the earned capital, and with a confortable 4 lots again.
When I make the 10+2 points in Nifty (or 5+1 points in Crude) for another 60 days (let us assume, in another 6 months, instead of 3 months), I would end the year of 240 (approx) trading days with 100 target met days.
It would still make my capital appreciate and pay me 3 lacs, which when added to the earlier withdrawal of 1 lac, will be 3+1 = 4 lacs.
Here I am looking at it with a laidout angle of "What If 10+2 point trade is made only on 100days out of 240 market days in the year".
Let me say, this post is another in the series on Cumulation Concept. The post is not about how to make the 5 points. The concept comes to use for a trader who makes the 5 point profit. :)
So, lets build upon it. -moh
wow, great, assortZ !!
ReplyDelete:)
Very conversational presentation of productive thoughts.
My first reflection :
1..
Fabulous diversification.
2..
Good split for volume buildup problems.
3..
Way to make your trading Free of Cost since the alternate viability makes route to withdraw capital, as well make a 100% on capital, and then whatever is on the table, and however it cumulates is on its own, till if any loss is confined strictly to the kitty on the table.
great that way, as a psychological relief.
That should get the traders move more nonemotional,
or
make him trade with an amount of ease.
4..
the scalp is reduced to 5 points.
makes the swing needed by half.
5..
you say crude gives more swing than nifty.
so the scalp possibilities increase.
6..
rest of it, on time timing, fantastic inputs.
thanks ...
(no wonder you are off from nifty to commodities)
:)
regards
moh
hi assortz, :)
ReplyDeletei noticed one big difference here in commodities
that the margin seems to be fixed
(unlike the percentage based on nifty, etc)
?
that gives another kind of variation in leverage ...
regards
moh
correct me if i got it wrong ...
hi RM :)
ReplyDeletesaw this calc ?
its a good one, to have the cake & eat it too, the second table ...
:)
regards
moh
Hi Assortz and Moh,
ReplyDeleteLaborious work carried forward by you two.
Let me cut past a quote i read at Anirudh site
FOUR. Trade in correct proportion to your capital. Have realistic expectations. Don’t overtrade your account. One of the most pernicious roadblocks to success is a manifestation of greed. Commodity trading is attractive precisely because it is possible to make big money in a short period of time. Paradoxically, the more you try to fulfill that expectation, the less likely you are to achieve anything.
The pervasive hype that permeates the industry leads people to believe that they can achieve spectacular returns if only they try hard enough. However, risk is always commensurate with reward. The bigger the return you pursue, the bigger the risk you must take. Even assuming you are using a method that gives you a statistical edge, which almost nobody is, you must still suffer through agonizing drawdowns on your way to eventual success.
The larger the return you attempt, the larger your drawdowns will be. A good rule of thumb is to expect an equity drawdown of about half the percentage of your annual profit expectation. Thus, if you shoot for annual returns of 100 percent, you should be ready for drawdowns of 50 percent of your equity. Almost no one can keep trading their method through 50 percent drawdowns.
It is better to shoot for smaller returns to begin with until you get the hang of staying with your system through the tough periods that everyone encounters. An experienced money management executive has stated that professional money managers should be satisfied with consistent annual returns of 20 percent. If talented professionals should be satisfied with that, what should you be satisfied with? Personally, I believe it is realistic for a good mechanical system diversified in good markets to expect annual returns in the 30-50 percent range. This kind of trading would still result in occasional drawdowns up to 25 percent of equity.
=========
In practice
1. i cannot concentrate more than 2 scripts at a time (for leverage trade)
2. i cannot leverage all the time
What do i do
a. Leverage on one script at one time ( long or short)
b. Play long-only in CASH Delivery with surplus capital. ( these I enter and exit on weekly charts)
This leaves lot of cash undeployed much of time.
AA> My leverage capital is predetermined and profits earned from leverage are shifted to Cash Delivery capital fund.
Cheers
Hi Alphabet :)
ReplyDeleteI have always found your inputs helping to fill a big portion of a larger picture. It does this time too, thanks.
I do not prefer big leverage, as i have put at the bottom of the blog. My preference and practice is 50%. Yes, on longer side I also go with Bees, positionally. And keep the MTM buffer in FD.
Here the concept is on minimalist levels in the sense the scalping is aimed at 5 or 10 points, once a day, in daytrade, all squared off by 3:25 maximum, with nothing carried overnight avoiding positional drawdowns.
The volume problem from later stage is the purpose of the second half of this post from assortz.
So he came up with diversifying, since he trades in multiple counters (may be his individual dynamics makes it possible, though with my memory problems i cannot handle more than few counters even positionally).
Again, there is absolutely no compulsion that one should trade everyday. If couple unsuitable days are ignored nothing is going to lost. It will only get postponed. A more definitive trend alone need to be scalped. And, the aim for the decided 5 or 10 point +exp 2point. Nothing beyond, no further trade, no extensions, no carryhomes is the concept.
And, if the seed capital comes out, there can be an amount of non-emotional tact possible.
Moreover, this is an attempt to present thoughts. This is anyway not like jumping across a valley, that we should be worried about falling to the bottom. This is more like a long jump. If we do not make that 16 feet, we may atleast make 6 feet, and take home that 6 feet profit, till we hone further.
The idea was to say Take Small Bites instead of Big Chunks - while still getting good returns.
And, the variation in the counters available.
But, yes, I appreciate your points. And, the passage from ASR site is a wonderful piece of trading psychology. Your thoughts and ASR post has lot of sensible meaning.
Thanks for your value-addition, as always, Alphabet.
Have a great long weekend,
and
Have good trades!
:)
regards
moh
this weekend assortz is supposed to be busy.
let him add his reply in his own time.
alpha, i have escalated some points into the post footer.
DeleteFrom the time of the 2 timeframe ichimoku you have always provided lots of stimulus to thought.
Thanks a lot.
regards
moh
I meant on longer side I take Bees also in addition to Contract and for Contracts I go with buffer in bank.
ReplyDeleteI donot trade commodities or forex. That assortz does.
Hi Moh,
ReplyDeletethanks for wonderful formatting of the post. Sorry, i had to rush with it hence saved it in drafts without any formatting. It's good that i have left in a plain plate as it has got decorated good now :)
Yes moh, it has more swing and you can scalp less to beat nifty.that's the beauty with oil. And the margin, it is same like nifty i.e, on % basis..i have given approx margin details in the table for easy understanding and calculations..
Hi Alpha,
Thanks for highlighting a good point from ASR.
Absolutely agree with leverage part. I always insist to go with 50% capital only for trading. That's the only way to survive the tougher times. But, i have different opinion with diversification. As a trader, we go through lot of struggles on the initial days. Once we are settled with right attitude, mindset, approach and with our own technical system or setup, we should not waste the time. System or setup is the same for any contract. We should slowly and steadily enter into different vehicles one by one. That will for sure take us to reach the riches otherwise we should be staying at same court for longer time.
Hi AssortZ,
ReplyDeleteOn the margin, got your point,
so, since we started working on the first post when Nifty was at 5000 we took for the original post Rs.25000 as margin per lot.
For comparative ease you have kept the same level.
ok, let me try to add this detail as a note in the post so that the clarification to margin requirement will be available in the post itself ...
The theme is very good, as a scalp and as a concept.
regards
moh
assortz,
ReplyDeleteok, i have added the explanation for the margin in the "margin per lot" column. To think of Nifty, how it has climbed up from the 5000 levels when we thought on the concept! Great positionals ...!!
There the SAR post & works became very handy.
regards
moh
Guys please tell me what kind of stop loss we keep with 5 points scalping method, I want to become crorepati too :)
ReplyDeleteI think is is not practical (not want to demotivate anybody friends) :(
We need to think in terms of risk to reward. Most of us have probably done these calculations, but when we see the charts things appear very difficult.
Ha ha AJ :)
ReplyDelete"Not Practical" is a non starter for a discussion since it comes to concluding para as a prelude ...
:D
Have a great trading season!
regards
moh
:D
and my comment is on the lighter side AJ
ReplyDeleteat late night!
:D
Hi AJ :)
ReplyDeleteon a methodical note:
01.- Are we going to daytrade ? If No, then this thread stops here.
02.--If Yes, then would we look for profit ? If No, then thread terminated.
03.--If Yes, then What is the Profit Amount looked for?
04.--If Less than 6, then the trade is not for this purpose, It is another method.
------If More than 6, then its first leg upto 6 point is going to be taken for this concept, (profit beyond can be taken for other purpose).
Suited Stoploss would be a tighter one.
Suited cost should be lesser one like the RKG or a scheme.
This for keeping a 1 point leeway stop which gives a breather. (adventerous may go for slightly more, but then reducing reversal miss and preserving capital is priority, taking trade is secondary.
Suited method would be a momentum hitchhike and jumpoff.
Breakout like ORB, IDNR7, prev day High Low, Pivot Point negotiation, 80%rule, etc and scalping a 6 point off the breakout momentum,
or a trend on a hook & bounce from trendline to buy high sell higher (short low cover lower).
Most reversal happens on waiting to book profit aiming the target higher.
Instead an immediate booking out is looked at.
Per this post the aim is 5+1 point and no further.
A PaperTrade till one can get 10 point a day, on selected tradable days.
why should one trade everyday? Not necessay ...
One need to go in only on suitable days. The result may get delayed. So what!
One can trade a small mini lot, the result may be proportionately smaller. So what!
Its one step a time.
One can stop off at anytime.
Look at it on papertrade as triable,
and switching to real trade only on growing up on scalping knack.
Another possibility is to try out scalping programs some advising sites may have and see if that helps.
Here we are trying to look at this concept by avoiding the greed to look for bigger bites of profits, and
instead seeing how to make the best of smaller bits.
If it looks not possible best to ignore the concept.
:)
Your inputs will be valuable. Lets have it.
regards
moh
Thanks mo h for a detailed reply :)
Delete:)
DeleteHave a good day, Anuj,
Good to have seen your comment here!
Sorry, I am not blog trotting much for want of time these days ... unlike before.
regards
moh
AJ,
ReplyDeletecertainly you are not demotivating :).. i take your comment as a honest feedback from your experience..i wanted to share some thoughts and since the size of the comment became huge, i made it as a separate post in my blog :)
5 points scalping – Is it practical?
Old link given to AJ's reply not working.
Deletetesting with new link here 5 points scalping – Is it practical?
hi friends
ReplyDeleteslightly late for comments nevertheless. scalping is not impractical. it is real. i was hearing a recoreded webinar of markus heitkotter who
has a scalping strategy who does it. one point he made was different . scalping trades are high accuracy poor risk reward trades. ie for 5-10 points sl wud be 4 times 20-40 points. the target is expected to be reached 1st so trade booked. in event of target not reaching sl gets triggered. the accuracy is 90+% so return is positive.
another thing i feel is that when a trader trades it is as per few rules. now those rules can give good/bad runs so in practical trading for any trader some days will be positive some negative. some days will give u 5 profitable trades some 3 losing trades. so limiting to one trade
a day might be adverse. a trader can follow his system/rules which can give him 6 profitable and 3 losing opportunities in a row and this can be true of scalping too. i have never scalped. this is what seems logical to me. maybe a succesful scalper can tell more abt it.
Hi Piyush :)
ReplyDeleteI agree on almost all the points you have put.
But I also have some clarification on your points to give you.
Give me sometime. I want to give you a detailed reply on my thoughts.
Check here later. I will try to post the reply comment here by tonight.
:)
regards
moh
Hi Piyush,
ReplyDeleteI liked your focused comment.Bottom line is the belief in the concept.Once the belief is set in, you will start the search for the suitable action plan.I agree that it should be a accurate trade and also agree that SL should be placed at higher level which should have less probability to hit. I believe that we get similar set-ups i.e, accurate placement in a day at least 2-3 times. We need to develop the skill to spot on those entries and more than that should learn the art of real quick executions once you get there to that spot.Have read that scalping is still a pure bet with biggies who has very deep pockets.
Now waiting for Moh's comment :)
Piyush, hi :)
ReplyDeleteI give what you said in brackets, and my thoughts below it, I have given more to share my thoughts, in addition :
1.. [scalping is not impractical]
yes.
I have couple of more reasons to it. That is,
The scalping aimed profit is the least among trading profit lookouts. Therefore, if a daytrader trades for 20 points, 50points or 100points target, then the scalping 5 point is done before reaching that 20, 50, 100.
Normally scalping is not looked at since one will look at it as too small a take, or one will cross it and go over it. Such extension has the reversal and giving away the profit possibilities. And, scalping is more like locking the profit.
So, logically looking at it, if one cannot trade for 5 points and find it impossible then how can profits higher than that be practical & possible!
What I try to tell here is, if you cannot get down from your bed, how are you going to climb upto the roof!
If you cannot lift a 5kg, how are you going to lift 25kg!
All this i tell in daytrade terms.
2a.. [high accuracy poor risk reward trades]
High accuracy, mostly. But high risk need not be.
There are the momentum and acceleration points in the demand or supply curve.
When we consider a BreakOut, Trending, Clinging to Trendline, Rectangle or Triangle BreakOuts, Previous day High Low Breakouts and news breakouts the momentum carries a small distance. This distance may be not enough for regular higher profits, but may be long enough to throw the price the length of a small scalp.
This is where AssortZ tried to talk about even a 2 trades of 3 points each may equate a 1 trade of 5 point as variable possibilities.
How I look at is, if you look for travelling from Delhi to Calcutta you may not get many possibilities, and you may cancel out many times, and may have to plan more. But, if you are trying to reach down to the nearby area smaller efforts may get you there.
2b..
ReplyDeleteRisk ...
Yes, a wide stop will avoid many a whipsaw and if hit may be bad ratio.
The alternate possibilities is we have brokerages ranging all the way from Rs9 to Rs.500 a lot ...
Getting the least brokerage either under scheme of straight off the shelf is possible.
The advantage in lower cost would be the transaction cost would get confined. This would allow multiple reveral entries without adding much to cost.
And, the lower cost of multiple entries will allow tight stoploss, since reversal cost will get minimized.
eg:
if our reversal cost is confined to 2 points, then 10 reversals at cost will be equal to one wide stop loss.
In momentum ride a small target may be closer than that many reversals.
If you see breakout points you will see my reasoning.
If trade costs 2 points (as example) even a 3 point is a profitable trade, and 2 point is a square off trade.
2c..
Volume and End Numbers ...
I think mainly the End Figure is the attractor and distractor in this post.
A person gets drawn by the "L to C" concept.
while another person gets anxious about the "V".
In my thoughts both are justified in their concerns.
But I would think in another way. That is, why look at a building and think if one can move it?
Let us think only about a brick if we can lift it ...
Let us think about the 5 points if we can make it.
No, not everyday, not with 100 lots on the first day, not as a must trade.
We can try it on paper trade, we can progress to one mini lot, we can do on the day of a big breakout or trend ignoring all other days.
We can try it while we do other daytrades since any trade will have to cross this minimal number before reaching their target.
If at all we succeed, and confident, then can try to do it and to reduce anxiety, pull out the capital the moment the threshold is reached.
And continue with a free mind that our capital is not there.
And stop and walk off the day we do not like the method.
3.. [some days will give u 5 profitable trades some 3 losing trades. so limiting to one trade
a day might be adverse]
Exactly the point assortz was making ...
4. [limiting to one trade a day might be adverse]
Its an option, if one wants to take the first good trade and move on.
Your option will make more possibilities and acceleration.
Only, overtrading temptation need to be controlled, since many a good profit gets thrown off in compulsive followup overtrading.
I mention 1 trade since more than 1 is above limit option.
5. [a trader can follow his system/rules]
ReplyDeleteYes, piyush.
I always believe in method & trader should get comfortably matched to have good trades with a feel on the pulse of the trade system.
A trader with understanding on his system will be able to decide better, faster and make it yield in reasonable levels.Such own rules will also make him know the when, what, why, how as the price runs through the method, with better clarity in mind.
Very basic simple momentum catching rule is the need.
Quickness to get off at scalp level while the move is still hot is the close cropping.
6.[i have never scalped]
Yes, because the sum is small most do not take it up assuming not worth the effort.
But most days in our other regular methods we would also notice on many a failed trades, the failure was for not reaching the larger target, but the scalp amount was there in most of those trades.
And, one assumes only for big volume a scalp is good.
This is equal to us rather spending off that Rs.500 simply and not considering to make a recurrent deposit of the same, till someone point out that a SIP investment at throw away amounts do accumulate to something larger than was foreseen.
That was the main concept of these posts, to tell nothing is too small to start with and nothing is too big to reach out for.
Its a thought provoking, mind stimulating weekender series.
We tried to show different variations, counters, progression, capital pullouts or total cumulation concepts.
And, the mention of PaperTrade is so that one will try to see, without committing.
A real commitment should come only after thoroughly running it on papertrade fitting and refitting all the nuts and bolts.
I have tried to look through in a lengthy way, to look at it better.
regards
moh
hi piyush,
ReplyDeleteYour points are good,
it gave me few more ideas,
thanks.
:)
hope my answer does not tire you ...
moh
Hi assortZ,
ReplyDelete:)
I wanted to look at Piyush points carefully, so took the time, and space ...
:)
I have supplemented your thoughts from the discussion. Piyush has summarized both our thoughts.
:)
regards
moh
Hi moh,
ReplyDeleteVery detailed and well explained answer. I was just hearing markus who discussed abt scalping staretegy (didn’t disclose it) so i thought maybe i can add his views here. He is of also view that when we decrease stops the accuracy will fall drastically. Like if we give 5:1 reward to risk the accuracy will fall hugely. Even a 30% accurate system will make good money. These are his views and i just read and put here because it sounded logical. His scalping system uses 6 as sl for 1 profit and accuracy is 90+% (he says)
And it makes money. For him .If we use small stop the win loss ratio will be adverse. his views that if we want accuracy the trading system will have poor risk reward and if we want good risk reward we’ll have poor accuracy sounds very logical to me. So extending this suppose we scalp for 5 points with 1 point sl we might have accuracy of 35% or less. No of trades will increase. The speed at which a trader can trade can also become a limitation. And the no of trades will increase . even going to loo might be difficult :- )
Now when we scalp its not easier as our target is small and in 40-50 points range why cant one get 5-10 points. its much harder as per the view of Alexander elder. Who compares trading to playing video game. Position trading is level 1 and day trading is level 5. Now ideally u have to be good at level 1 to be good at level 5. Scalping wud be (my guess) level 9. So though it appears deceptively simple but its not easy. Now as u said a beginning can be made by paper trading and small lots, then withdrawing capital (that is more positive and better stance as against my negative : - ) one ) . what after all i have written is view of many and wise ppl as interpreted by me. As traders moh we know view may be/may not be is not worth the piece of paper on which its written. :- )
Piyush,
ReplyDeleteno, your comment was not negative.
but
as usual you are digging deeper to 50 feet,when the water may be available at 5 feet itself :)
keeping a deeper stoploss will always give you the space fall back on without gettin whipsawed, yes.
and, as always, it will also increase the risk reward ratio adversely.
the relationship between stoploss depth and riskreward ratio may be direct or inverse depending on the target length.
1:6 is a big depth. In a scalp it may work positive if it is not done at random, and applied only on momentums and trends of strength.
it will also remove yet another strategy,
that is, in a scalp small swings mostly bring the target within hit.
so, the short stoploss can be twisted into SAR when a strong swing across a pivotal point makes it possible to take the minimal target on other direction too.
But, what i feel is, it is all about trading to gain one 5 point.
Ask yourself few questions :
1.. Are You DayTrading?
2.. If so, for what number of points you initiate the trade?
3.. Are those points in average more than 5 points?
4.. If so, then how do you think more than 5 point is possible but 5 point is not possible?
5.. If not, and if you are trading each day for less than 5 points then this does not apply to you, since you are a super-scalper already...
6.. If you are making more than 5 points, then try to spare 5 points into compounding, like how you start saving some into RD from your income.
Now, by this set of questions I am trying to impress here the basic logic.
Again, trade is a day today matter. There are no masters in real sense who does well. Else all of them will be billionaires by now, if their utterances had worked. Most of them look for this scalp profits while they say they trade big, piyush. Most claims of success will be claims after the event. Ask for yourself why would anyone have to find otherways of generating income if trading itself makes reaping riches. Most will cut short and book early to lock profit, though initial aim may be higher. Thats why positionals are more preferred way and daytrade for scalp takes.
Algo and highfrequency will be at all traders level soon. Programmed order placement will be implemented soon. Then the quick takes will be a chain order at one click.
The post does not suggest method, rules, ways,,,
It simply suggests
"If 5 points made such and such is possible" or
"How well a 5 point profit can be nucleated".
It also tells about the ranges the counter makes which is far wider than the 5p oint.
We are talking on how to get the 5 point while the subject of the post is recurring & compounding.
:)
But your points have given lot of quest. It is valuable from another angle - Trading. I will soon try to post a few scalp posts and look at different situations of making it and consequences. Your points and other views will come valuable in that post.
regards
moh
nice and detailed answer moh.thanx for reply. some points u made ooze wisdom and experience which u have accumlated over long trading career.
ReplyDeleteHi Moh and Piyush,
ReplyDeleteExcellent case study discussions and am watching them silently :).. i picked up a lot from the comments and thanks to both of you..
hee hee :)
ReplyDeletethis kind of conversation is possible only among the known devils like piyush and anuj and us :)
its interesting while filling the mugs of thoughts with useful nuggets of knowledge.
:)
after becoming tied up in schedules i rarely enjoy these exchanges these days !!!
have a good weekend, guys,
regards
moh
Hi folks
ReplyDeleteAha! making millions while I was away! No worry, I will raid Anuj's den to collect my share of loot. :)
@assortZ
The idea of milking crude is very good. This is a standalone instrument though, it never looks at any other index for directions. Sometimes I wonder if the crude biggies have hidden a few cannons on the banks of Hormuz strait which they fire at regular intervals. :)
I plan to come to the textile town and get a job as your steno or something, to pick up commodity trading stealthily from you while typing your letters. :)
@Piyush
Very correct observation, the concept of risk/reward as practiced by most traders is simply not valid for scalping. Any scalper who keeps a SL with favorable risk/reward ratio will be on government dole (NREGA) very soon!
@moh
Man, you are just superb. Even Thomas Edison did not have so much ideas as you come up with. I believe that all routes to the aforesaid textile town pass through Chennai (you have been warned!) :)
regards.
rm
Hi RM, :)
ReplyDeleteGood to know you are coming in person to deliver the 10% ... , oh what more one who plans a vacation can look forward to !
:) assortz, be happy boss, moola coming by flight soon. (RM, hope you do not book in KFA and use it as excuse to escape)
:)
Anyway, if you are coming to deliver i am here, if you are here to take away, then please note (ah, thanks for the advance warning flag) i am gone exploring tsunami origin taking the 50feet route dug by piyush. Because thats where Anuj has buried the idea deeep.
:)
I wanted to give a link to Shai to Anuj and Piyush to go explore the scalper. But thought they would know already anyway.
Guess the scalper will come handy to you sooner than you thought. Hope you will use it.
Its all about visualizing. And you guys, assortz & yourself have done the best on it, since both of you have been pasted at some sites (without credits to you anyway). :)
regards
moh
@moh
ReplyDeleteWho wants credit man, we want just cash. :)
RM :)
DeleteThats why I did not mention the sites ...
:)
To avoid this kind of demands which they may meet if they too get aid from bank consortiums.
:)
@rm,
ReplyDeletejust read the observations from a source found very convincing and logical. a successful intraday trader and scalper (u) have found what i stated as correct.
that gives me confidence
@Piyush
ReplyDeleteThat is mutual exchange of confidence, your classifying me as "a successful intraday trader and scalper" has given me immense confidence too. :)
Good to see
ReplyDeletea successful intraday trader & scalper
and
a correct observer
trading mutual in confidence exchange ...
:)
now we have got ourselves a
National Confidence Exchange, and the
Index shall be christened MUTEX.
:)
ahhh good fun :D
regards
moh
rm , moh
ReplyDelete:-)
RM,
ReplyDeleteThanks!
I would be happy to appoint you as my trading mentor.. :)
Don’t forget to carry that suitcase with much awaited 10% moolah :)
Btw, any touch with black gold or red metal?
Moh,
Finally RM is coming down to our hot towns all the way from his chilled hills. Be ready to welcome him with 10hrs of powercuts :)
And, congrats for the new floated index MUTEX.. :)
Let us start back testing it.. I can request RM to supply data for this from his ami :)
@assortZ
ReplyDeleteJust busy filling the suitcases, will fly once they are full. :)
I am terribly afraid of your black gold, it is surely of volcanic origin! I do try to scalp the red metal in miniscule quantities from time to time. You can understand how long it will take for the suitcase to fill. :)
Data! Aha, my friends at vtrender have named me "vloomberg analyst" due to my penchant for storing data!!! I am trying out echarts for mcx data but my poor old notebook takes such a long time to transfer the data from their application to the amibroker that charts get delayed by upto 30 minutes! But I have collected daily data from their servers. I'll try to store that too in my borrowed storage at My 4shared sync!
Hey RM :) v for vtrender+loomberg, cool.
ReplyDeletei am sure girish must be the one with such catchy things ... :)
oh boy, AZ mentions the new MUTEX index backtesting and its data.
ok ok good you are wielding the sickle on Hg, soon we will get atleast CuSO4 from your end.
Come man, with or without moolah,
we can sell off your suitcase, etc etc but for a couple of frenchies :) and make the coins tinkle.
RM, something mystic happpened... I loaded that intradata NS and BNF as topup, and the damn thing has REPLACED the entire database, overwriting the collection we made, walking back years!
No i did not think about backups since i did not expect this.
Later when i have the time i shall try to take the older data and load it patiently.
regards
moh
Hi AZ,
ReplyDeleteyeah, rightnow i am sitting in the dark typing out the messages ... GOK how long the battery will standby. It has become an everyday matter.
RM, better pack up some ice too, else you had it here :)
regards
moh
@moh
ReplyDeleteYou got it right man, Girish is the culprit!
Amibroker has this habit of wiping out old data if the same symbol is used. You could avoid that by tinkering with the symbol, like use Copper_assortZ-I instead of Copper-I.
:)
Girish, the all-rounder he can bat & bowl, and sometimes keep the wickets too. :)
DeleteOk, so ami has the habit of dropping off beaus ... :)
then later i shall upload the data from you.
suggest you what, we then should create as you said, a separate symbol, and then merge it...
its pain unlimited
:)
RM,
ReplyDeletehe he! Moh is right.. am seeking for MUTEX data..am sure you can supply that soon.. just kidding senior :)
and don’t name that as copper_assortZ.. copper is losing charm with me as the positional trading range is narrowed.. as I told you already, am with white gold now.. have you seen the tragedy on the 29th Feb :).. I was doing a hard swimming in that gigantic tide.. :)
Hey, great az :)
Deletehow many colors gold gets!
very soon we will see RM commodizing (not in WC) Snow and Ice too ... :)
@assortZ
ReplyDeleteYes, we have a mega trader Janak, who traded truckloads up and down. I was just watching the Niagra falls. :)
With Janak, you will have shorting Niagra & the longing Tornados ... enjoy the season and cling on to him.
DeleteAll he has to do is shout out, "LONG" or "SHORT"
and you simply "Click"
and wait for him to shout "EXIT"
and you double simply "Click Out"
(and i am waiting here with assortz to count the chips)
:)
@moh
ReplyDeleteYes! It is better to save intraday data in .csv format elsewhere for important indices and index futures. The EOD data can always be downloaded from NSE, so there should not be any need to waste storage space on that.
RM, the problem now is i lost the data i gave you for some August Month too :)
DeleteTell you what, dont put in 4share, but instead send me directly the BNS, BNF, NF, NS ieod from when we started it when time permits. Being 4 scrips the file should be within size if sent individually. If it is bigger we will see the other folder usage.
All in your own time...
:)
(I dont use the stock anyway, so dont need them)
and, yes, this time i will be careful ... and keep a backup.
@moh
ReplyDeleteall the intraday data upto 2nd March 2012 is already uploaded on 4shared for NF and BNF, I can sure email you directly too. And will update the NS and BNS data soon and email you too.
I have made a habit of uploading intraday data on 4shared because first, it is a safe deposit if i lose data due to heavy tinkering and second, nobody should starve without data (SG passed food security bill, I am trying to ensure data security for everyone) :)
No RM, my reasoning is different.
ReplyDelete4shared sometimes gives problems. thats why.
And, i want only these 4 items.
is the one at 4shared full set, or only this ?
pls clarify.
@moh
ReplyDeleteNo problem, I'll email you after updating the intraday spot files.
At 4shared i have tried to organize things a bit. NF and BNF have their own folders with .csv intraday files. I have also uploaded all stolen AFLs in another folder!
Someone wanted to know about MO calculation, so i have uploaded an excel file on MO where one can enter A/D data and get the MO for the day. No one can complain of lack of transparency! :)
The whole bunch of amibroker database is also available but not updated for February. So if you lose everything, just download that one. :)
Aha, that sounds cool, like a Departmental Stores, or shall we say "Walmart of Data+"
ReplyDelete:)
yeah, when you got the time you mail me the database details i will pin it up for reference here in your corner.
@moh
ReplyDeleteOh man, complete details are already here, just click on the link in my 5:36 pm comment and you get the whole thing. :)
RM, fine, i will pick it from here.
ReplyDeletewish in comments too we can star mark to refer later easily
:)
wow rm,
ReplyDeletecongrats for ur entry in commodities. i am stuck in nifty
only not having courage of bnf too.
but how u manage so many positions
nifty,bnf,comm, options, i dont know if u still do stock futures.
u have hired guys to punch ur orders??
regarding data , i didnt understand what u and mo said. but i am stuck with aug 2011 data when u changed ur method of uploading..
u guys must be thing a cave man reborn :-(
congrats az for the mega fall :-)
@Piyush
ReplyDeletePositions? must be joking! I never had a position, either in school or in trading unless you consider a holding period of half an hour a position. :)
@rm
ReplyDeletethe moment u open one its position .
shorter duration positions are much more challenging than longer duration ones (this is different issue anyway)
but even if half and hour r u able to open 3-4 positions simultaneously and manage them??
@Piyush
ReplyDeleteNo man, I am an ordinary human being not moh!
Only NF in NSE time and fiddling with copper in late night show. :)
hi RM, you are online & commenting too ... :)
ReplyDeleteouch, you have upgraded yourself to efficient category, boss, by telling you are not like me
:D
have a goodtime electroplating!
its good the commodities keep you pinned down in the evenings, by that way the counters get their town time-slots, sharing the HumanCPU single-tasking
:)
Piyush,
ReplyDeleteif you want to know what earning is
join Vtrender ...
and be practical instead of reading too much into theories and trying to be student forever.
PhDs are for academics, not for earning.
:)
Time you start on practical notes.
:))
@moh
ReplyDeleteYour blog always seems like a miracle to me with one guy (who does not have much time to spare) doing so many things at the same time.
I guess when you get some free time, you will be able to trade all 50 Nifty stocks as well as all tradeable indices simultaneously without much effort!
RM, typo
ReplyDelete*town read as *own
hey RM,
ReplyDeletewhen i get back to freetime, and back in full swing i may be in that traderoom
:)
so no problem in doing n50 also with you beside
:D
@moh
ReplyDeleteAnd why do you think Piyush is not at par with Ben uncle in printing greenbacks? He knows that the moment you get wind of his scale of operations you and assortZ will begin demanding an unfair percentage!!
RM :)
ReplyDeleteWe dont trust paper (limitlessly printed) money :)
yeah ... :D
If piyush becomes Ben,
We will become BigBen, dont worry,
by that way we will have London Tower beside to take care of him
:)
But seriously, he should stop wasting his time,
close his eyes to diversions and join shai, if he wants to really earn. Else he will earn noise and whipsaws in plenty.
hee hee, on a liter note, me and assortz put things downtoearth, and kicked up items that work smoothly in a laminar flow.
ReplyDelete:)
with the available workshop.
hi rm and moh,
ReplyDeletei once had a chance of visiting shai's traderoom and saw rm doing stock futures banknifty and nifty all. how is he with just nifty <(underreporting earnings :-)>
moh ,learning mp was in my wishlist but somehow i cudnt get started with it. i am of firm belief that a trader shud come to intraday in the end after he has traded consistently well positionally. sar gives whipsaws u r right but a disciplined follower
who doesnt skip trades and prematurely close positions can make money. but u wud be right that with assistance of shai a trader will be able to make good money.
rm , i wud not be making anything in comparision of what u wud be making :-)
moh i had a discusson with az too. i am quiet focussed these days. i try to trade just by my methods without giving any importances to divergent views flying across.
and rm is not wrong abt ur energy levels :-)
i have one more firm belief that once u start incorporating any study in ur trading atleast u have to be with it and devote few months so it makes an impact in ur trading and it becomes second nature. just learning something and getting initiated makes negative impact if any. so initiating myself into mp means i have to give it 6 months even if it benefits me or not. this is another reason that when viren introduced mp most read it briefly but i didnt read even single sentence because i cudnt give it 6 months and make it an important part of my life. now i dont know wether these beliefs r foolish or not. seniors like u rm az and others can guide. but yes i have strong desire to learn mp.
@Piyush
ReplyDeleteI think you have hit the nail on the head. It is not important which method one follows but it is important to stick to the chosen one for quite long to get meaningful returns. So it is better to stick to what one is good at and keep improving in that area itself. I am not able to follow SAR based methods because I get panicky during whipsaws. :)
No RM, i was referring to your chart and markings on it, sometime back ... if you recall.
ReplyDeletei mean, my markings on it when i returned the chart to you ...
ReplyDeleteGood God moh, you have an elephant's memory. I don't even remember what i had for breakfast today. :)
ReplyDeletethats because of the variety and items on your table
ReplyDelete:)
Elephant ... you mean the one that walks around with an additional hand ?
:)
awh, forget it,
ReplyDeleteit should make money at EOD ... thats the method needed.
@moh
ReplyDeleteYeah, they carry long memories but with domesticated elephants, it is about their food only. It has been reported that when their caretaker skims off part of their diet, the elephants remember and take revenge at an opportune moment. Unfortunately their revenge is not limited to caretaker's diet. :)
by the way, your charts look super at the new site with new pages.
ReplyDeletebut i somewhat got confused getting direction, with many individual pages.
:)
Thanks! Stole your stolen honeybee. :)
ReplyDeleteThe header for all the new posts appear on home page. So you need to only visit homepage.
yeah, must be like a regular website it has been made.
ReplyDeleteI am rushing in & out when i get some late hours.
and weekends
:D
ReplyDeleteyeah, i wanted to comment on the bee.
anyway, the stolen bee was run off with yet another stealer to whom i gave it ...
:)
These bees! When will they understand the concept of loyalty? :)
ReplyDeleteP.S. I dread the bee replying "when you understand the concept of royalty"!
:D
ReplyDeleteUnfortunate for a person who claims himself to be a lazy dum dum choosing a busy buzzing bee
:)
consider fiddler Locust ...
link :
http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcR2ItjIIs-PL8HLJdQq22XgroC8xft9fmTPFnJkAcMC_v-jvKpLmLD7kMU
http://www.disneyshorts.org/aImages/characters/g/grasshopper.jpg
ReplyDeletesee this
Yeah, good one, though looks more like a cockroach then grasshopper. I needed my grin too so maybe this one is better - http://www.clker.com/inc/svgedit/svg-editor.html?paramurl=/inc/clean.html?id=43435
ReplyDeletethank you thank you,
ReplyDeleteconsider it huh ahhh mmhhh stolen ...
:)
lol
ReplyDeleteRM, so how do u guys get into commodity, i mean timings, the room opens yet again in the evening for it ?
ReplyDeleteRoom remains open till 11:55 pm. But commodities timing is too long and i don't have stamina to sit thru the entire market time so i just try after 6 PM or so before US market opens.
ReplyDeletewow, almost midnight seen ...
ReplyDeleteyeah, you are used to hitting sack early,
so watch & do ?
Yeah!
ReplyDeletedont want to go deeper on the open page about the room ...
ReplyDeletei will rather come on mail, but its only a casual chat, this one was
ok,
so the angel stuff goes fine on com also ?
i closed off with them.
Yes, angel is good for very small contracts (mini and micro) because RKG charges fix 9 rs per lot. Me being a micro trader - angel fits the bill for commodity. :)
ReplyDeleteyou mean rkg is higher for mini com lots ?
ReplyDelete(i dont deal in com)
if you are trading silvermic, rkg will be 9 rs per lot while angels at fix percentage will cost 6 per lot. though copper mini is almost the same. But for trading the main contract rkg will turn out to be much cheaper
ReplyDeleteWhats the Lot Cost & percent ?
ReplyDeleterkg is 9 rs per lot flat. Angel's brokerage is .01% and will depend on contract's value.
ReplyDeletegreat!
ReplyDeletehow does it compare to the zeroda ?
Zerodha is flat 20 Rs per trade, so very good for trading options.
ReplyDelete@rm
ReplyDeletethanx for ur reply. even i hate them. but no option :-(
the no. of trades u wud be making
money in wud be huge(high accuracy) but in sar the risk reward is favourable and accuracy unfavourable. when i look at my trading i have nothing for intraday (no good tools till now) so in dont do). u r excellent in that area. but trading positionally will have its advantages where ur stress(constant attention) levels will be less. with the surplus u generate in intraday u can enter this segment too which wud help u capture both areas in the market. just a thought so wrote. actually life is like that. others' problems
seem simpler to solve :-). pls ignore if useless.
@Piyush
ReplyDeleteThanks man!
The idea of converting a good intra entry into positional trade (specially on trend days) is very appealing. The only issue is that an intra-trader is so keen on booking part profits that not much is carried till EOD. But what you are suggesting is an ideal way to enter positional trades.
no rm,
ReplyDeletei was not suggesting to convert intra into positional. suppose take nifty ( lets say u do 2 or multiple in nifty, do it as u r doing it) u can either open account in name of family member or u can add to it. u had backtested system or any sar and trade independently in that system without affecting ur currect trading which u have excelled in. this way u'll gain from an additional moves (large positional moves) which a scalper cant get. lets say u consistently do 300 + in nifty that remains. but wether nifty moves in 300 point range or 700 points move that makes no difference to u . a scalper cant exploit it. now since u r gaining in market the pain of loss is minimised (which happens in sar) as u can recover. mixing intraday and positional will complicate only and i dont feel it wud be wise. i was just suggesting to add positional to ur trading without letting it even affect in any form
ur current where u r doing so well.
and trade that positional independently